走向超值而極緻的 HI-FI電腦訊源（連載）

[psycho]

搞太複雜,太花俏真的沒必要,聲音也不容易做好

我個人認為以上這是非常錯誤的觀念。

我們玩音響，最重要一向只有聽感而己；只要聽感正確，那有什麼花俏還是複雜這種無聊、無關的形容詞？否則乾脆也不要什麼電腦播放了，一台MP3加耳機最不花俏、最簡單了，聲音當然能聽！只是雞同鴨講而己。

更重要的是一但有這種『只會用形容詞批評』的態度，會不會太不尊重人家辛辛苦苦多次『以聽感為本』的調整CAT之分享？人家的耳朵只是為了花俏與複雜而進行那些CAT裝置嗎？會不會太以自己聽感為尊而視他人聽感為無物？

很抱歉這樣子的言論會造成嚴重的錯誤討論態度，必需要強烈批判！真是可惜了..................

[pkshan]

聽感是最重要的

我意思是,可能有些人某小細節聽出差別後,然後在該細節投入過於誇張的動作,而對其他更多更重要細節不顧或不了解

這樣回報有限

照我blog優化下, 單一台電腦,聲卡不太差的, 音質超越bladelius embla這種播放器很輕鬆,
不用搞兩台電腦玩遙控, wifi,windows裡的無線服務,用來傳送無線資料的軟件/plugin等,
這些本身就是會降低音質的
(貴站上那些itunes,foobar+無線plugin等,這些播放軟件本身就是衰聲的,不應使用)

[rendzaw]

聽感是最重要的

我意思是,可能有些人某小細節聽出差別後,然後在該細節投入過於誇張的動作,而對其他更多更重要細節不顧或不了解

這樣回報有限

照我blog優化下, 單一台電腦,聲卡不太差的, 音質超越bladelius embla這種播放器很輕鬆,
不用搞兩台電腦玩遙控, wifi,windows裡的無線服務,用來傳送無線資料的軟件/plugin等,
這些本身就是會降低音質的
(貴站上那些itunes,foobar+無線plugin等,這些播放軟件本身就是衰聲的,不應使用)

看似如此,誰會想到會跌破眼鏡,沒有驚艷不會一頭栽下去,

沒有栽下去永遠不知道會出現什麼火花........

[psycho]

聽感是最重要的
[恕刪]

多謝 pkshan兄認同『回歸聽感本身』的討論，在此感謝。但是還有幾個問題如下：

第一、既然只談聽感，那麼所謂plugin或無線『一定會導致衰聲』這種話就不能講太早，只要使用真實聽感一測試，就會知道自己的侷限在那裡了。

第二、這裡原本一向只討論 usb ddc如樂之邦 03 usd，最近臨時討論到 airplay，原因只有一個：就是它的聲音正確性居然勉強追得上 usb ddc，這就是『回歸聽感本身』的討論與分享；至於預設了什麼程式或無線聲音就一定差，那又是一種自我設限。

第三、其實airplay會好聲的電腦原理實在非常簡單，要不要去好好理解而己。

第四、正因為回到『真實的聽感』，才不能在任何音響或電腦條件上太早斷言；其實，您的 foobar xa300的問題正是在此。仔細聽我說一遍，希望這是您一個很好的機會。

1、很多人以為電腦優化是得到『更正確的聲音』，問題是，優化電腦也可能得到的是聲音上的加料；這時就要問：聽者自身有沒有對正確聲音足夠的判斷能力？有，優化就會走向正確；沒有，優化反而會走向加料。到底是『真正的還原』還是『加料的還原』？

2、從您的 xa300 的表現，1960年代正確的小提琴錄音，也就是先前INA的葛魯米歐或其他類似年代的 EMI FRANCE或 CALLIPOE之小提琴錄音，表現地最佳，甚至會有比2010錄音更像小提琴的感覺。OK，這是不是正確的聲音？無人可判斷；所以重視直接聽感的人，就會把所有理論丟到一邊去，試試看其他樂器的發聲情況會如何。

3、於是我找到一張 SKARBO ，以超巨型的FAZIOLI鋼琴再加上特殊演奏方法來模擬大鍵琴的特別錄音。
廠牌：Skarbo / 編號：DSK1096
http://blog.chinatimes.com/psycho/ar...17/652908.html
測試檔 http://www.my-hiend.com/psycho/WAV/Tambourin.wav 點選下載。

這下子就無情地暴露出：彈奏高音時為了模仿大鍵琴，延音故意減少，而XA300卻『加料成』延音很多，結果變成很不會彈鋼琴高音的庸手了；而低音一出，真慘！每個低音聽圯來變化極小，人家明明為了讓大鋼琴的低音聽起來像大鍵琴，低音的觸鍵小心謹慎過度，造成每個低音聽起來都不一樣。

4、也就是說，只要善用不同錄音方法與不同樂器的發聲原理，就可以發現我們追求的到底是『真正的還原』還是『加料的還原』了！由前述第2、3的比較，很明顯是您的XA300是『加料的還原』，所以遇到特定錄音方式與樂器就會超級好聽，遇到相反的樂器發聲特性或錄音方式，就會誇張地不能聽。

5、所以您自認為您的電腦優化方式是『真正的還原』還是『加料的還原』？從XA300的表現就可以知道一二了。當然了，絕對不否認這樣子的播放軟體『的確聲音還算很真實』。只是，它的水準必定受限於您的聽感水準；您對錄音水準的要求有多高，XA300的水準就只能有多高；因為它只是『加料的還原』，受限於您的基本聽感能力。

6、相對的，JPLAY原作者的音響品味爛到爆，樂之邦調音後的MD30之DAC水準也是爛到不能聽；但是他們的播放軟體或USB DDC都是明確的『真正的還原』；理由很簡單啊！我使用數十種樂器聲音去測試、數百種不同錄音公司去測試，每種聲音都能清楚地表現出它的特性來。這才是真正的聲音辨別能力，相形之下，您所謂的『可能有些人某小細節聽出差別後,然後在該細節投入過於誇張的動作,而對其他更多更重要細節不顧或不了解』，老實說，早就被我上述方法解決光了......

第五、所以結論就是：請您稍稍放開心胸一下，看看這個世界還是很大的；很多東西沒有實際試聽過，不要太早下定論。而且很多嚴謹的聽感能力很可能人家早就想過幾十年了！在這個討論串裡，如果真的要有豐富的收獲，還是請您先把所有理論與定見丟到一邊，先談談您的真實聽感再說。

否則老實說，您把我前述所謂的 NAS AIRPLAY稱為『搞兩台電腦玩遙控』，其實就明顯完全看不懂我們到底在說什麼嘛！貶損別人的聽感是不會幫自己的聽感能力加分的，除非真正知道別人的聽感究竟有什麼問題，就好像我上述直接了當證明您的XA300是『加料的還原』一樣。如果無法因此加強自己的聽感判斷能力，那麼您的音響水準就真的只有如此而己，那就不必多說了。

(END)

[pkshan]

XA300沒加料的,說了很多次,可用RMAA測的

你們有些人可能習慣了新世代高jitter,數碼味重的聲,對自然的聲反而不熟悉了,

請拿XA300跟優秀的analog或最優秀的CD音源對比,這樣對比你會發現XA300還有不足之處(其他軟件聲音就像垃圾了,非常壓縮,緊張,刺耳)

digital這部份,最重要的表現是:寬鬆,清晰,厚潤,泛音美,聲音安定感好,柔和,極高極低延伸好,開揚感好(當用耳機聽時,聲音不像是直接灌進你耳,而像是自然地"飄"進你耳
當有這些特點時,說明jitter失真低,

jitter失真高的表現為:糊,生硬刺耳,結像小,聲音不安定像不停震動,聲音或偏會亮,但極高頻延伸差,
聲音漲耳,聽了數十分鐘後耳朵會開始疼(這問題非常常見)
而在這情形下,那些什麼音場,定位,分離度,大部份都是失真假像

最容易觀察到jitter問題的地方,是:清晰度,寬鬆度,微小細節(如感情,泛音尾音)
因jitter就像攝影的"對焦" , 高jitter時,音像會有失焦感,一些原音樂信息會失真成噪點

人耳對jitter十分敏感,常您聽過大量更優秀器材和樂器後,聽力會顯著提升,並不難聽出jitter高低差別

再說回你上面提到的"尾音似有延長",其實這是比較微妙,比較難做的一種音響素質,
而XA300在這方面,還未到極致的,當你聽了一些高檔音源後,回來聽,會發現XA300尾音還是有些粗糙的

[pkshan]

如果你很在意真實,又便宜的,推薦你echo audio的聲卡,我也用這卡
echo在專業錄音領域,是公認的真實,加料少,意思就是很多器材聲音經過它後,改變很小

樂之邦......我只能呵呵了
不知為什麼您對它評價那麼高

[小余]

這邊討論真是熱烈~~~哈哈!!!

AirPlay 的確是可以避免產生數位底躁的一個好途徑
當然...改造AE是必要的~~~
所以基本上如果用Rosita 的 Beta以上等級的款式，來做數位輸出(同軸或是AES/EBU)，接去任何你要評測的DAC，比AE的光纖輸出好太多了。
(我指的是單純討論傳輸途徑，不比較DAC本身的聲底^^)

這篇文章大家可以參考一下!!!

http://www.larosita.fr/Rosita-2013/P..._concepts.html

La Rosita

Explanation About la Rosita


La Rosita is Wireless Musical Player that connects straight to your Hi-Fi. NO MORE CABLE!

You control your music and iTunes without moving.
The music is stored on your computer after ripping. No data are missing, everything is there. As all the conversion from digital to analog happens it one chips, there is no jitter.


WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ALL ROSITA’S MODELS:

DIGITAL NOISE FLOOR / you never miss anything anymore!
One difference between the Rositas is the ‘’ Digital Noise Floor ’’. You need to consider it as border that signals, will never be able to cross.
How lower is your digital noise floor, how better you will hear the details of music. La Rosita is extremely low. It brings out the micro-details that result in softness and warmth.
A digital noise floor is not a stable line. It is constantly changing up and down like the sea level. That is why it is important to have it at the lowest level as possible. This way, more details, nuances, fineness and subtleties of the music will be available. The average CD-Player will have a digital Noise floor of -70 to -80 db. You miss 20% of the possibilities of the CD recording. The best CD-player ever produced in the world was -93dB. You still miss something. The Beta New will have -102 dB and the Pi, more than -105dB.
With LA-ROSITA you never miss anything anymore!

NUMBER OF CONTROL IN POWER SUPPLY
Another difference between Rositas is the level of control of the power supply.
The Beta New has 2, The Omega has 3 and the Pi has 4. More control of the power supply will translate in more softness, more energy, more responses. This means all the sound will pass with all the energy they really need.
In term of music, especially on piano and violin, you will hear the attack of the musical note very sharp at it is and note softened.

INSTANT FULL ENERGY SUPPLY (IFE®)
A patented power supply, IFE® type (Instant Full Energy®), capable of producing unlimitedenergy without inertia. We could compare it to a car that will never have to switch gear to change speed. At any time he will have enough power to reach any speed needed effortlessly.
Another image will be a sport man without short of breath whatever the condition or the field in which he is running. The Pi has the IFE and the Beta has a lighter version of it.

THE PI, THE ULTIMATE VERSION.
The Pi was made with one idea in mind: no compromise and put the price issue on the side. The PI uses not only the best components, but all components are matching with the other and chosen in matching pairs. Every single component is tested and measured one by one to find its perfect pair. Everything was build to make sure we reach the best level possible in sound reproduction ever matched before.
In addition, a deeper work on all the output stages and a unique treatment called DFTA® (Direct Frame To Analog). This devise give the ability to the PI to adapt, fit itself to the next level, the PRE-AMPLIFIER and AMPLIFIER it is connected to. It analyzes the charge of the next devise and it put itself at the same level. In other words, it puts itself in the best condition for amplifier to work in total harmony with it.

There are some more difference between the 3 Rosita:

a) Beta, Omega and Pi have a digital output so that you could use it with your own DAC ( Digital to Analog Converter) if you like. Pi only, has 2 kind of digital output available, SPDIF Single ended 75 ohms, and AES/EBU 110 ohms .

b) Pi has a XLR analog output. It is an option for the BETA and for the OMEGA.



OTHER THING ABOUT LA-ROSITA
La Rosita is the achievement of 8 years of research and tests; and 35 years of audio experience and music passion.

All Rosita have no jitter. No Jitter means, the music is never tired, it come straight to your brain, you can listen for hours and hours, you will never again want to change the volume level or switch to another music.

La Rosita has been conceived to respect the TEMPO of the music.
When we proceed from Analogical to Digital, it was a great step forward for audio but also a step backward for the music reproduction.
The reason for this. ALL digital devises need a time base (Oscillators) to rebuild sound from digital file. The music itself is built on time base, which is the cadency, the tempo. When you put two time bases over each other, inevitably you degrade (Lower) one of them. The one of the electrical circuits cannot be altered otherwise you take the risk that the devise will not work. So, it is the tempo of the music that will be damaged. LaRosita has succeeded to avoid this dilemma and there is no more compromise. It respects the tempo of the music. This one reason the music sound so fluid and pass with ease.


Another advantage of la Rosita. Simple is more functional.
Today, we now know that a clock signal will undergo more temporal strain (distortion) on a circuit path of 30 cm than an analog signal would be over 30m !
So, the idea was to reduce the digital signal path length so that it will never be distorted. The only solution was to move from digital information to analog information without leaving a single and same processor. All the Analog Digital conversion happens in a single chips the size of a 1€ coins.
In a traditional setting of digital reading and digital to analog conversion, the multiplication of transport and transformations that signals have to pass trough cause degradation of the musicality.
In LA ROSITA, the information is translated from a state of raw network data to a state of musical signal in a SINGLE component!!! The incredible reduction of the path of the digital signal is essential in the preservation of the musicality and to avoid any jitter issue. In addition there are no loss of insertion (passing from components to another). Everything happens in a unique and single component, the size of a 1€ coin!)


Similarly, as the signals (digital and analog) do not pass through long paths, they are not tainted with losses by insertion (#1) or by jitter and distortions
(#1) At the junction of the welding there are losses. The welding of the metals together creates this problem. And different metals give different color to the music. Since all is one chips, there are no more losses by ‘’ insertion’’, you don’t have two metal mixed with a third one. You have a real electro fusion. This is a fundamental advantage. LA ROSITA is totally neutral and don’t add any color to the music. What you get is what was recorded. One reason why the Pi is the choise of some Studio Recording to play their music.

In comparing A / B source, the more neutral and more true unit still appears to be more dull because it does not include any artifice (contrivance) but eventually, when listening the ROSITA for full music pieces, the desire to switch, to lower the volume or simply to change the CD does not exist anymore.


To fully appreciate a Rosita, you just have to listen and only listen to music that carries emotion to be able to recognize its high musical qualities.

There's nothing like La Rosita in its ability to capture and to relay emotion, melody, the musical flow and its fluidity. This is probably the first time that we found with a digital devise the accents of both the analog and the vinyl This because of our proprietary Algorithm for DtoA reconstruction based on Lagrange Transform and done by a very advanced DSP system.


Once you have a ROSITA, you just enjoy the music for the music and you have the right devise to reproduce music as its was recorded








As you can see here is our new moulded V3 module.

(left picture) Composed of 2 multilayers circuits boards (Right picture). On the top (black) Airplay bridge original Apple® for best compatibility with iTunes® and just below, our own DSP board (green) linked to the Apple’s® bridge including our own DSP engine and our exclusive D to A Algorithm based on Lagrange transforms (Tempo®). On the same board, our original BioClock® and our IFE® ful linear power suply for all various DC voltages needed.

All Rosita’s streamers models use this module with various levels of Algorithm based on Lagrange transforms, BioClock®, IFE® power suply and our Activ/Passiv A Class single ended output stage called DFTA® (Direct Frame To Analog). ( an Iron Hand in a Velvet Glove)

All firmware upgrades can be done at any time.

Hardware evolutions, are simply done by moulded module replacement!


數位底噪/你再也不會錯失任何東西
Rosita與眾不同的其中一項特色是極低的數位底噪。底噪對訊號而言就像是圍牆一樣，永遠不可能穿過。數位噪訊月低，你能聽到的細節越多。Rosita的數位底噪極低，它獨特柔軟又溫潤的聲音就是精準反應「微」細節的成果。數位底噪不會是穩定的，它就像是海平面一樣不時高高低低。因此讓它盡可能地低是很重要的。如此一來，更多的細節能夠被呈現。一般的CD播放機的底噪大約在-70~-80dB之間。你很有可能損失多達20%存在錄音中的細節。世上最好的CD播放機能達到的底噪在-93dB。這樣依然會損失某些細節。新的Beta數位底噪在-102dB而Pi更達-105dB以上。

即時全電源供應 (IFE)

理解專利立案的IFE電源供應的方式就是把它想像成一台不需要換檔就能變速的車子。在任何時候都有足夠的動力毫不費力地，達到任何需要的速度。或者想像為一位不論他如何在場上奔跑，都不需要回氣的運動員。Pi配有IFE而Beta則配有IFE的精簡版。

Rosita終極版本，Pi

Pi在輸出級下了很多工夫並有一項稱為DFTA的技術。DFTA可以分析最適合前級以及後級的輸入，然後改變自己的輸出讓自己的輸出等同於接續在後面的器材能夠工作最順暢的輸入。也就是說不論使用什麼樣的擴大機，Pi都能夠合諧地與它們一起工作。

其他觀點

當從類比進步到數位來說，它對Audio來說是一大進步，但是對重播卻是一大退步。原因是因為所有的數位設備都需要一項時間基準用以把數位檔案還原為聲音。而音樂本身也是建立在一項時間基準上的，那就是節拍。當你把兩個時間基準放在一起時，不可避免地，你一定會讓其中一個品質下降。而在電路板上的時間基準沒有辦法改變，否則有可能這台機器就不能運作了。所以音樂的節拍會受到傷害。而Rosita克服了這個問題。在電路中，數位訊號可能只需要30公分的路徑就會感受到失真，而類比訊號則可以到達30公尺以上都還不會感受到失真。所以避免數位失真的首要工作就是縮減路徑長度。因此Rosita採用網路傳輸，訊號經過最短路近直接進入DAC Chip解碼，把各種失真的影響減到最低。

[psycho]

[恕刪]

您一定沒有看過我的blog吧？.....

請看看： http://blog.chinatimes.com/psycho/ca.../2606.html?p=3

我家訪過多少千萬級的音響玩家，應該比正常人還要多很多，冒然猜測我沒有聽過頂級音響系或訊源的聲音，會不會又太快、太過度推論了一點？....

再者，剛好我也是LP玩家，硬體先不說，至少我挑出來的便宜（因為大家都不知道其真正價值）但是錄音與版位皆真正高傳真的LP軟體，還沒有多少黑膠玩家敢質疑的；要說有沒有見識過頂級黑膠系的聲音，您又太快、太過度推論了一點......

最後，真正頂級的CAT玩家，都會發現CAT的撥放水準『早就』可以打敗任何超高價位的CD轉盤或LP系統了！CD轉盤是先天缺陷，LP黑膠系統則是沒有夠高水準的錄音；只是如此極緻的CAT設定非常麻煩，所以要把這整個討論串從頭到尾看完才能知道透徹。

所以我評估CAT的水準很簡單：沒有發現早就全面打敗LP黑膠，就是不合格啦.....

理由也非常簡單：CAT最大的優勢就是可以做到絕對不加料、史上最高傳真的聲音。如果真的見識到超高傳真，就會知道市面上的唱片99%都是錄音垃圾的唱片（音響測試發燒片更嚴重！），完全沒有資格讓CAT播放、播放了也只是更難聽而己。

所以LP黑膠再強，也永遠會輸在沒有任何LP唱片的成品是『超高傳真的錄音』；有這種見識的發燒友，一下子就可以知道CAT(甚至是CD轉盤)早就遠遠遠遠超越LP系統一大截了！還會留戀LP，是留戀不夠高傳真的老錄音，也就是在破壞自己耳朵的真實聽感去迎合老錄音的缺陷，後果就是永遠無法發現真正超高傳真的錄音有多驚人，當然就會不知道CAT可以有多麼強悍了。

您如果發現您的CAT加上 XA 比不上頂級LP系統或CD系統，首先我必需感謝您的誠實聽感，再來則是老實話：這表示您玩了半天CAT，還沒有學到最重要的『錄音(轉錄)水準之辨別能力』，所以使用的是『不夠高傳真的錄音』來比較CD/LP/CAT，當然就會得到上述誤判的結果。

我雖然不是百分之百推薦您的XA300，但是它也算是頂級的高水準了。以我的CAT系統再加上XA300，早就把LP黑膠系統踢一邊去了！因為相同的高傳真錄音，像樣的唱片公司，新出版的CD其轉錄HI-FI水準一定遠遠贏過LP，所以LP是完全不可能有贏面的。這就是玩CAT最重要的：『錄音(轉錄)水準之辨別能力』。

所以一切都發生在玩音響時，究竟有沒有以錄音(轉錄)本質進行判斷的能力？有，CAT才有可能走向絕對正確的HI-FI聲音；無，CAT的走向就會很容易走偏了。

P.S. 至於您提到的JITTER聽感.....如果原始錄音水準就不夠，JITTER就一大堆，您的音響如果能正確減小JITTER，早就應發現99%錄音都是JITTER嚴重的錯誤錄音了！！使用原本就JITTER嚴重的錯誤錄音，再使用夠正確的音響播放，就會出現您的聽感描述。可惜，那是無意義、做白工的..........只要不要聽錯誤錄音，改聽夠正確的錄音，就會發現您描述的聽感根本只是微不足道的入門水準而己......

[pkshan]

to psycho:你的聽感就是有問題的,因為XA300真的沒加過料,而你聽成有加料,

而對音樂信息還原有缺失的,你卻認為是"真實"

還是那句,請多聽,聽些更好的,好的analog設備,最好的CD機,現場的,或自己彈下樂器等
跟最好的比較,XA300還是缺了些東西的,
而您提到的這些播放器,聲音是沒血沒肉,是很數碼味的

[小余]

多拆個幾台,好聲音就跑出來了,

網路上跟國外很多人在改這耶~~~~

真是服了大家對音質的狂熱~~~加油加油!!!